Curse

GloryFox · Jun 13, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Lets keep on topic please..

How is the armor cap going to effect areas, personal builds, and team builds in PvE?

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

I was looking over my Paragon team build and noticed I was useing Koss for Watch Yourself while also using Stand your Ground. (cant do that anymore)

Y.T. · Jun 13, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

well its rly sad that anet talks about making it easier for some not-so-popular professions to find a group in elite area but keeps doing exact opposite. just think about it - be4 the nerf alot of paragons, dervishes, ritualists and eles tanked in doa just fine, whats going to happen to them now? personally i'm not complaining, i'm not tanking there, but its going to make questing in doa more boring if all those nice intelligent tanks will be thrown out of doa.... f/ex theres no room for paragon in doa but tank, but paragons have like 80AR, so now every pug will think "lets kick that para tank and take the war instead, at least war got 100AR and since OF and armor of earth dont stuck now that war will have 153AR and poor para will have only 133AR".... i know ppl who tanked on their ritualists in doa, i've heard about OF sins being good tanks, i doubt they will be able to do it after the update...

Racthoh · Jun 13, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

SYG and WY are the only two that come to mind from an observer's point of view. My guess would be because the buffs that are party wide can't be stripped and have zero practical means to counter them (and the game shouldn't be Build Wars to quote many PvPers), so rather than balance the skills in question it would be easier to add another cap to the game.

drekmonger · Jun 13, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

L

Was armor stacking abusive in GvG and PvP?

In GvG not so much. Shouts in Paragonway made for some situations where the armor cap might come into play, but I believe it's mostly it's nerf aimed at earth tanks in RA/AB/HB.

...

Here's the real problem:

Once upon a time, PvE was meant to lead into a PvP endgame. But the game was never set up properly to facilitate this, and the problem has only gotten worse with the addition of more "difficult" elite areas and hard mode.

Instead of increasing PvE difficulty via AI improvements, situations (such as scripted events/traps), and better skillbars -- the difficulty in PvE increases via sheer numbers. More mobs at a higher level. Coupled with the mob's lackluster AI (and the PvE community screaming bloody murder whenever that AI is improved), we've ended up with two very different games where the same mechanical effect from a skill will behave in a very different manner.

Further, the game hasn't been designed with team size scaling in mind. Armor bonus stacking is hardly a concern in 8v8 PvP, almost requirement in 8 vs a dozen high level mobs, and seriously annoying in 4v4 PvP.

The real solution would be to completely redo PvP and/or PvE so that one more closely resembles the other. Also enchant/hex/skill stacking in general should of had more general counters to begin with. That is mostly not an option at present, and probably hasn't been since Prophecies shipped.

Hopefully, a.net will take these lessons into GW2, but I'm not holding my breath. The current update suggests that a.net doesn't completely understand the beast they've created.

klrk · Jun 13, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

they'll make warrior useless coz some idiots abused the system
with the 25armor cap , i better use my hammer and no more tanking then

DarkGanni · Jun 13, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

So this means no more Doylak + physical/ele resistance, GG this update will nerf most of my favorite tanking builds ever. Definitely a very bad choice, this update will make the game worse more than ever.

mazey vorstagg · Jun 13, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Come'on people. Skills like Armour of Earth are still valid. Its' only stacking that doesn't work.

If they were trying to stop terra tanks and earth farmers (like me) they didn't. Armour of earth still provides the +67 armour becuase a single skill. Stoneflesh aura on top of that makes me invincible still

rohara · Jun 13, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

bad move, imo. HM and elite missions were hard enough even with the armor buff stacking. bonding hardly works due to the enchant strippers. what now?

Longasc · Jun 13, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

The +25 cap is pretty bad.

The exact reasons for this nerf are yet untold. Some people asked, maybe we get an answer.

I can think only of one reason for the nerf: Two shouts, "Watch Yourself" and "Stand Your Ground" = +44 Armor.
But is this really such a problem. WY by now requires to invest in Tactics.

Many people here do not see the issue with that. Nerfing Armor Stacking - in the sense of making it virtually impossible thanks to the low cap -just reduces options, destroys a lot of build and is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

One more super-artificial limitation. Just as unintuitive and odd like the 1in5 and 3in15 Soul Reaping bandaids they have come up with.

FoxBat · Jun 13, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

But is this really such a problem. WY by now requires to invest in Tactics.

Yes, it is. In PvP there are these things called "team builds" where people actually bother to coordinate, and two paragons will go command while one brings tactics, with both WY and shields up. The entire team will then proceed to not die.

I admit this really kills dolyak signet as a skill though. It's almost never worth sacrificing mobility for a mere 30ish armor you can't stack onto anything else.

Now they can just change prot spirit to protect a fixed amount rather than percentage and the HM farming nerfs will be complete.

RhanoctJocosa · Jun 13, 2007, 07:02 AM // 07:02

This doesn't do anything to RA griefers and has ruined the fun ways to play warriors in PvE (Racthoh and Lamda's stuff).

Spazzer · Jun 13, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

The fact that armor stacking is essential to the horrible DoA team builds is just another example of why PvE needed this.

Winterclaw · Jun 13, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Silly question but if the problem was with shouts, why not cap armor increases from shouts alone?

NeHoMaR · Jun 13, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Example:

- Dolyak Signet +34 armor (12 Strength)
- Shield of Regeneration +40 armor (Always)

If you have both skills in you, you will be have +40 armor, plus all extra armor you have (runes, etc.)

That is the way I understand the change. Most people understand if you have SoR alone you have +40 and when casting Dolyak Signet you will be at +25, that is plenty ridiculous IMO, and I don't think the change is in that way.

Plague · Jun 13, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Bad move on ANet's part. One of my warrior builds relied completely on armor bonus stacks. Now it's worthless.

Is it just me, or has the game, in these late months, been excessively whittled down with nerfs to ensure there are no highs or lows? Everything is just... medium these days. And that's not a good thing.

When Guild Wars first came out it felt like my Necromancer was given a missile, and my Warrior was given a tank. Now, it feels like my Necromancer is using a stick, and my Warrior is using a rock. And both of them are layered in safety-first helmets and knee pads. When did Guild Wars become so lame?

Winterclaw · Jun 13, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

But in order to get SoR to last, you need both a high prot skill and a way of getting your energy back fast. For a warrior, that can limit the builds you can use to make it work. Doubling them up both limits your mobility and drains e fast.

Antitorgo · Jun 13, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

The fact that armor stacking is essential to the horrible DoA team builds is just another example of why PvE needed this.

What the??? Have you ever played in DoA? I suppose your "solution" is to have the monks in the front-line?

Milennin · Jun 13, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

If Armour bonus stacking is a problem in PvP, why not just apply the thing in PvP and exclude it from PvE...?

Marth Reynolds · Jun 13, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

This is just stupid... i certainly hope they will not implement it as it will hinder deep steel wall and doa builds and much more.

Tanks will become blockers now i guess -_-.
IMO warriors will be hit hard with this nerf, as they usually had several +20 ish armor boosts for tank builds.

Ari · Jun 13, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Easy easy way to fix this.

Make the "skill balances" ONLY AFFECT PVP. IE: Some skills, maybe most.. would be two different things depending on whether it's PvP or PvE. Same with changes to armor stacking, soul reaping.. you name it. PvP and PvE are not symbiotic! Let's seperate them.